TRANSCRIPT: National Security Interview with Mike Pence
Polaris National Security founder, Morgan Ortagus, interviews former Vice President Mike Pence on pressing national security issues.
A note from Morgan:
This year, we are proud to host Presidential hopefuls for in-depth discussions focused on national security and foreign policy. Our first special guest was Ambassador Nikki Haley, and this month we were glad to be joined by the 48th Vice President of the United States, Mike Pence. Below is a transcript of my interview with the former Vice President, I hope you’ll take the time to read our Q&A and stay tuned for future Polaris events!
[Editor’s Note: This transcript has been lightly edited and condensed for ease of reading.]
Ortagus: Good morning, New Hampshire. It is so good to be back. And what I'm really excited about is how many of you are repeat customers of Polaris National Security. You came to our first event in Portsmouth and now you're back here… Everyone told me that no one cares about foreign policy. I think here in New Hampshire, we have proven that wrong. All of you do care, and we're excited to have you here.
I’m going to ask a very quick two-part question on the border. Every candidate that comes through to talk to us is going to agree that our undefended southern border is a tragedy. I want to know what you would do differently to fix it, if you were to be sworn in come January 2025, and I want you to talk a little bit about how you can stop fentanyl from coming into the United States. It has devastated our populations across the country, especially here in New Hampshire.
Pence: Well, Morgan Ortagus, I want to thank you again. I want to thank you for your work with Polaris, but I also want to thank you for your distinguished service at the State Department and really one of the leading voices on foreign policy in the United States of America…
We have a crisis at our border unprecedented in American history, and it's a man-made crisis. That man's name is Joe Biden. From the first day of this Administration, Joe Biden undid, systematically, every policy that the Trump-Pence Administration put into effect that reduced illegal immigration and asylum abuse by 90%.
We not only built hundreds of miles of border walls and supported our Border Patrol as never before, Customs and Border Protection had the resources that they need; but beyond that, we negotiated with Mexico.
I led the negotiations with Mexico, and we secured a Remain in Mexico policy that said to people, if they’re applying for asylum in the United States, they need to remain in Mexico while they wait for the adjudication or the court date to consider asylum… In addition to that, as COVID struck, we used Title 42 to allow us to immediately return people back across the border.
When Joe Biden came into office, he stopped construction of the wall and has been working to dismantle the Remain in Mexico and Title 42 policies. The avalanche of inhumanity and suffering on both sides of the border has been unrelenting…
I promise you, New Hampshire, if I have the privilege of being President of the United States, that ends on day one… Let's give border patrol what they need and put Title 42 back into effect immediately and return people back across the border with the Remain in Mexico policy.
These cartels are international criminal organizations and they're violent criminal organizations. They dominate south of our border and they've provided for the flow of fentanyl into our country that's literally claiming lives all across New Hampshire and all across this country.
We need to be tougher on drug dealers. I think we need to continue to provide compassion and support to people that are caught up in drug addiction in this country. If I'm President of the United States, I'm going to sit down with the President of Mexico. And I'm going to say to him, “Either you go after the cartels on your own, or you go after them and we'll help you”.
We cannot continue to allow these international cartels operating out of Mexico to run roughshod on our border and flow drugs into our country. As President of the United States, I promise you, we'll take the fight to the cartels and we'll win.
Ortagus: Sir, I'm going to go from our border to the other side of the world. I want to bring up Afghanistan because we are coming up on a tragic anniversary, one that is still hard for me to talk about as a member of our military, somebody who went to Afghanistan a lot in your Administration to try and solve America's longest war. Almost two years ago, we lost 13 young men and women. Most of whom weren't even born on 9/11, and we left in such dishonor and chaos. I just want to give you a moment to talk about what happened two years ago with that anniversary just days away, sir.
Pence: Well, first, I want to honor your service in the uniform of the United States. I know we've got other veterans in the room…
Look, the disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan under the Biden Administration was a disgrace, and it dishonored the service and sacrifice of our armed forces over 20 years who were defending this nation in that country.
Before commenting on that, I want to say particularly to all the veterans in the room and anybody looking on, nothing in that disastrous withdrawal will ever diminish the honor that is owed to everyone who defended America in Afghanistan after that attack.
Let me be clear, it never would have happened if the Trump-Pence Administration had gotten four more years… Mike Pompeo negotiated on the Administration's behalf a deal between the Taliban and the Afghan National Army.
It was three parts. Number one, you can't touch American forces. Number two, you can't harbor terrorists. Number three, you got to work with the Afghan government.
That was the deal. I was in the room when we made it clear that if they broke the deal, we were going to hit them harder than we'd ever hit them before. And for 18 months, there were no American casualties in Afghanistan. None.
When Joe Biden came in, he started changing the deal. He moved the withdrawal date from before the fighting season to after the fighting season and inexplicably was going to pull the last American forces out on September 11th, on the anniversary of the worst attack on American soil in history that originated from that country…
I'm the proud father of a Captain in the United States Marine Corps. So when Humberto Sanchez, one of the 13, came home to Indiana, Karen and I drove up to sit in the back row and pray for the family. We ended up having an opportunity to meet his mom, meet his family, an incredible American family.
She told me the story of Humberto at that gate. We now know from congressional testimony what was clear at the time. They knew somebody had gotten out past the outside wire. They knew they were wrong. They were telling people working the gates like young Humberto, to pull back. Shut the gate. Pull back. Get to the airport. And his fellow marines who were there that day told me that he refused. He said over the radio that most of the people in his line at that gate were women and children.
His mom looked at us, and he said his last act on earth was a work of heart.
And I'm here to tell you that what's happening now in Afghanistan and what happened then, emboldened the enemies of freedom around the world. War is raging in Eastern Europe. China continues to menace and Iran is back to its old malign influences across the region.
Weakness arouses evil. So we're going to honor all those who served over 20 years. We're going to remember Humberto and the other twelve who fell that day, and we're going to get back to peace through strength in this country and never let that happen again.
Ortagus: I think what's maybe not on everybody's radar, which could land in the lap of the next President, is Iran. They are actually very close to obtaining a nuclear weapon and they are arming the militias in the Palestinian territories. They continue to threaten and harass the region. They're threatening our American naval vessels and our commercial ships. I see Iran as something that may not be on everyone's radar, but that could be a flashpoint in the next presidency.
How do you deal with Iran if you're elected?
Pence: We don't go hat in hand like President Joe Biden, begging them to get back in the Iran nuclear deal. We isolate them as never before.
If the world knows nothing else, the world needs to know this: America stands with Israel. We made that clear.
Instead of building on the Abraham Accords, I actually heard that the Biden Administration refused to use the term Abraham Accords for the first year and a half in office. They should have been building on it. There are other countries in the region that were interested in working with us, normalizing relations with Israel. They squandered that opportunity and then worst of all, went back to the politics of appeasement with Iran…
We've got to get back to the policies of isolating Iran. That's how you make progress. Isolate them and cheer on and support the people of Iran who are long for freedom.
Ortagus: American investment companies and consulting companies and businesses can do business with the DoD (Department of Defense), with the United States military, and with the PLA (People’s Liberation Army). Does that make any sense to you?
Pence: With China over the years, the last 20 years, I believed that China would embrace more fundamental liberties. They would recognize private property. They would recognize freedom of speech and basic liberties, religious liberty. That’s the hard truth. I was the first one to give a major speech in our Administration back in 2018. The hard truth is that the opposite happened.
The more wealthy China has become, the more authoritarian it has become.
One of the things I'm proudest of, I think the Trump-Pence Administration changed the national consensus on China. Now the American people know China is the greatest economic and strategic threat to the United States of America.
I think we've got to continue to use access to our economy to leverage China to end the trade abuses and the intellectual property theft, stop all the military provocations in the Asia Pacific and the human rights abuses of Muslim Uyghurs and Christian pastors in their country, or there will be a cost.
And the cost will be the ability to sell things into America's market. We imposed $250,000,000,000 in tariffs on China, and they came to the negotiating table like that…
I remember they came in and they made a deal. They agreed to buy a lot of grain. They agreed to open up their markets. To the sale of US. Goods. They made lots of pronouncements about working with us on broader issues. But from what I hear, the Biden Administration hasn't held them to account on those US. exports, and they've done a fraction of what they've committed…
We've got to be tough with China. And I promise, as your President, I will continue the work that I did as your Vice President and in our Administration, so help me God.
Ortagus: Would you ban TikTok?
Pence: I'd ban TikTok in a heartbeat.
I worry about it for our kids…. China is collecting all your information and all your communications. They're getting your personal information because there is a law in China. The Communist Party is the law in China. The law in China is that all data of every company is subject to being turned over to the government.
So you can say TikTok's a private company. It's not. Come on. I was born in the morning, not yesterday morning. So we ought to ban TikTok not just from government organizations and agencies, as many good Republican governors have done, but in the federal government.
Live audience questions:
Audience Question: My name is Elizabeth and I'm a US. Navy veteran and my son is a Navy pilot. Today, I opened the paper, and I was horrified at the front page. Two Navy sailors gave military secrets and sold them to the Chinese. As you can tell from my voice, I just was horrified and I can tell you, when I was in the Navy, that never would have happened.
Pence: Well, I thank you for your service and your son's service. Thank you. That's incredible. Look, it's one of the reasons we've got to be deadly serious about handling classified materials in this country. I mean, those people were selling classified materials to the Chinese that included troop maneuvers, deployments.
Some inadvertent documents made their way back to my home in Indiana. I was glad that after the Justice Department looked into it, they found out it was an inadvertent mistake, but still a mistake. And I owned it. It's one of the reasons we can't trifle with this at all because there are whatever people's intentions, however things come about, there are people around the world that would like to find out more about what our technological capabilities are.
And I promise you, if I'm President of the United States, we're going to defend our nation's secrets every single day.
Audience Question: Mr. Vice President, this is a question on Ukraine. One of the guests here hosted an event on Ukraine a few months ago, and one of the guests at his house said, “If Russia stops fighting, there's no more war. If Ukraine stops fighting, there's no more Ukraine.” I heard that you had actually been over there. I know what you said about the Russians, but what's your take on Ukraine?
Pence: Karen and I were visiting a Christian missions group in Poland a month after the Russian invasion… We went to thank the relief workers, and when we got there, they said, we just got you cleared to go into Ukraine to visit a refugee center. So Karen and I drove a couple of miles across the border.
I’ll never forget what I saw. It was lines and crowds of almost entirely women and children that were fleeing the unprovoked Russian invasion. The men had stayed behind. The country told men of a certain age to remain in the country. It was a sight I never thought I'd see other than in black-and-white films from the early 20th century.
I returned to Ukraine about six weeks ago, came in at night on a train. I met with military leaders. I met with Christian leaders, the Orthodox Church, and I also met with Samaritans Purse, people that have rebuilt thousands of homes already for people whose homes were destroyed by Russian tanks and Russian shelling in the early days of the invasion.
I believe the national interest of the United States is in continuing to give the Ukrainian military what they need, not just to stop, but to repel the Russian invasion for this reason.
I mean, our hearts are broken about what's happened there. The moral case for support there is real. But you make decisions on the international stage and with public resources because of what's in our national interests, you have to.
I've met Vladimir Putin. If Russia overruns Ukraine, I have no doubt in my mind that the day will come when they're going to cross a NATO country border that will be required to send our armed forces into fight. I never want to see that day.
Ronald Reagan in 1985 summed up what came to be known as the Reagan Doctrine. He essentially said, if you're willing to fight the Communists in your country, we'll give you the means to fight them there so we don't ever have to fight them. I believe it's in the national interest of the United States of America.
And I know there are different opinions. People that are coming through New Hampshire these days. Some people are saying we give Russia what they want and hope for the best. There are some people that say we ought to put a time limit on it. Other people say we ought to be cutting back.
Look, Joe Biden actually said, “We’re there as long as it takes.” Well, look, it shouldn't take that long. The truth is, the Biden Administration cut off the military aid we had been providing to Ukraine when they came in. And ever since the initiation of hostilities, they've been slow to provide the courageous Ukrainian military with what they need to repel Russia.
We've only invested 3% of our defense budget over there. And with 3%, Russia has gone from being the second most powerful military in the world to being the second most powerful military in Ukraine…
I know there's a segment of the Republican Party, and I respect all of them who have a different view.
But I'm going to make this case because I really do believe men and women, if we're not careful, if we don't have leadership that understands the world… I believe the rest of the 21st century could look a whole lot more like the first half of the 20th century.
But if we stand firm, if we stand up to our enemies, stand with our allies; I think we can see the kind of stability and peace in the world that existed during our four years, and we're going to bring it all back with peace through strength.
Watch the full interview video below.